False Prophets and the Gospel of Greed: Naming the Prosperity Preachers

[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to Expanding Your Faith, a podcast that tackles modern day issues with a focus on spirituality, with Bishop Greer-Godsie, Reverend Mark Trim, and Bishop Ben Williams. Thanks for listening. Take a breath, open your heart, and let's expand your faith together. [MUSIC PLAYING] Right now knows that I am speaking prophetically by the Holy Spirit, and you are to sow a $3,000 seed. And that $3,000 seed, it might be a stretch. It might be out of your comfort zone. But it is an offering to remind God, God, I know that you are about to be the God of the supernatural miracles. And I'm tired of just making it week to week and month to month. And maybe I have to go into my investment. And maybe I have to do this just like Paula did just like the widow woman did. $100,000 to come in. I want $100,000. There are people. There are 10 people that could give $10,000. There's 100 people that could give $1,000. Get a check, make a paper to Paul White Ministry. There are people that are watching right now. If you say, I don't have it, give $100. Bring up a sacrificial seed. This is for me. This is about kids that will die without you being obedient. There's only three envelopes. I'm not moving. I'm not going to lay hands on people. To your obedient, get out of your seat. Come on and come bring up a seed. Say no to President Trump would be saying no to God. And I won't do that. When I walk on White House grounds, God walks on White House grounds. When I go into the dry cleaner, that dry cleaning place becomes whole. That clip you just heard was Paula White, the office of faith initiatives and Donald Trump's personal spiritual advisor as she reflected upon what she believes faith means to her. And in relation to Donald Trump, welcome to this edition of Expanding Your Faith. I'm Bishop Krier. And joining me tonight is Reverend Mark. And Bishop Ben, our producer. Blessings to all. And tonight we're going to be talking about false prophets in the gospel of greed, naming the prosperity preachers. And I want to remind everyone that the quotes that we'll be using tonight are presented and easily online from preachers and ministers. So if you want to go back and double check, you're welcome to do so at your leisure. As I always say, you can always catch past editions of this podcast at podcast.myocci.social. On Apple podcast and wherever you find your fine podcast streaming. Joe usually critiques systems and theological movements without naming individuals, but some teachings are so specific, so documented and so harmful that naming them is an act of pastoral protection, not gossip. What is commonly called the prosperity gospel is not a theological variation deserving denominational courtesy. It is on its own documented terms, a false gospel. And scripture itself gives the church specific language for naming that false prophets, false teachers, even wolves. In tonight's goal, we're going to name some of those specific teachings from specific public figures, set them directly against the text of scripture and then talk about what healthy biblical generosity and stewardship actually looks like. So it just isn't a takedown. It's also a correction. And so one of the questions we're going to focus on throughout this podcast is very simple. By their fruits, you will know them. So what fruit are they actually producing? Okay. So in language for some of this discussion comes Matthew 7 15 through 20 when he says, be aware of false prophets who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but from within a ravaging wolves by their fruits, you shall know them. Jesus doesn't ask his followers to evaluate a teacher's charisma, television, production values, or claimed anointing. He gives a single test. What fruit are they producing? And then in Matthew 24 24, Jesus warns that false Christ and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders. Signs and wonders are explicitly not proof of legitimacy in Jesus's own teachings. The bar Jesus sits is extremely high. This is not a minor doctrinal between denominations. It is a category. Jesus himself names and warns against directly. All warns Saint Timothy in 1 Timothy 6 5 through 10. He was of those with corrupt minds who have been deprived of the truth, supposing gain to be piety. This is a nearly word for word description of the prosperity, Gospels claim central Britain roughly 2000 years before it existed. And Paul continues. Godliness with contentment is great gain deliberately redefining gain away from money and towards contentment. They come the opposite direction, prosperity, teaching moves. And in 1 Timothy 6 9 through 10, those who wish to become rich fall into temptation and snare. But the desire of money is the root of all evil. Notice that he says the desire for money is the root of all evil, not necessarily money itself. As most people misinterpret it. This is one of the most misquoted. Are the most quoted and most mistranslated verses in the New Testament by some money is not saying money itself is evil, but directly warns against the desire as it's driving spiritual force exactly what seat of faith teaching cultivates. And so Bishop Ben, what are your thoughts on that? Well, you know, the question and people don't seem to understand when you read the New Testament. They misunderstand what that actually means. But we really look at it. You say money is the root of all evil. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean that it's evil and inherently by itself are to be us human beings make it evil, but through our greed, through our wants and things and baby things? Or is it our nature to be evil and with money from my understanding, the way the theology school was, it was gluttony, it was greed. It was how much he didn't stockpile. I'm in a big fat chicken account. Does that make sense? Absolutely 100% and then Peter issues a direct warning and second Peter to one through three. There will be false teachers among you in average with counterfeit words. They will trade in you. This could be read as though it were written specifically about televised seat of faith solicitations. Lord, we've heard a ton of those over the years, haven't we? Only you just plant a seat in my ministry. God will bless you tremendously. And, you know, point that some of them even go as far as to say you will become rich beyond your wildest imaginations if you just plant a seat in my ministry. Where Peter uses for these false teachers, what these false teachers do to their followers is essentially commercial. They treat people as merchandise, a market to be worked. And it's a multi-million dollar market these days. These two preachers. So we're going to talk about one of those people who take it or Paula White and her teachings against the text, Reverend Martin. In a little context for me from my preteen all the way up till I left my first pastorate, I was around prosperity. When I say I was around it, didn't necessarily teach it because it was something that sat well with me. I have met, Mike Murdock. I've met the japanese's of the world. I met his brother, who actually was instrumental in me becoming a full-time pastor. That's a long story. But I was in the middle of that. And beyond the names of some of the well-knowns, I was around large pastors that would be considered major churches in our area. And they were heavily into the prosperity gospel. And so I've been around this for a long time and watched it up close. I've watched the ice, you know, fables in the green rooms. You know, oh, do it this way. You can get people to give. And if you do it that way, you can give people to drop the money. And then oh, I was at this particular church a couple of weeks ago and the offering was $25,000. And there was only these many people in the church and, you know, basically comparing sizes. And so that's my background with it. It's something that I've watched up close. It's something that has disgusted me for years. I'll say this from the outset. I believe God does bless us. I believe God does give what we have need. As David said, I've never seen the righteous forsaken nor God's seed begging bread. However, I wholeheartedly believe there's a perversion of receiving that which we have need of versus trying to get things that we covet and those things that we want. And so you have people like, you know, earlier with Paula and she is one of the biggest pushers. She's not, she didn't instantly the other day. She's a little bit more educated. She didn't start it, but she has perpetuated it. Where she's calling on people to give a specific amount of money. And it's so funny because so many different people come up with all these different numbers. I remember when it was the, you know, anniversary of coming together as a nation, you had all these preachers all over America doing. And it's funny, almost always do you have them being specific with where it goes to. It never goes to go find someone on the street who is obviously in need hand them, you know, that are hand them the 1,144. dollars and watch God bless you, watch God help you watch. It's always no, you need to send it to me because if you because I'm the one which tickles me, I'm the one that knows how to disperse that money to the people that are in need. I want you to leapfrog over the area that you live in and give to a place, you know, a country to the city I live in, put the money there because I know what to do with it. And I will go into later what they actually do with it. And, and you're, you have these people that are coercing you, the Bible is very specific that we're to give as we purpose in our heart, not grudgingly, not a necessity, not being twisted in our, you know, thoughts. And so it's important for us to distinguish that while churches and ministries do need resources to function, and that's biblical and that's right, you know, visual to fund, if you will, the temple, the tabernacle, giving their substance to see the priest out there trying to, you know, get give 50 lambs when one was due. He didn't see the priest in the Old Testament going, well, you know, the 50th year of being together as a nation, guys, I need y'all to give, you know, for best, you know, you know, name it as we see that on television. So it is important that churches have resources, but it's also important to know that those resources are specifically for doing the work of the gospel and not the work of filling these preachers' garages with the five, six and 10 cars. And we'll talk about about that later. But, you know, this is a subject that really irks me. It's a subject that I think needs to really be addressed. And it's a subject that a lot of times when people do address it, they get very, they go overboard. I think it's okay to have righteous anger with it. But we also need to educate people to why it's, it's an error and not this, not discourage people from giving to their local churches and ministries that are doing stuff. Because that's, to me, that's the other side of it is people say, Oh God, you know, trying to buy the latest and greatest for their homes. I'm not giving them a cent. And then the churches, you know, up and die. And that's very true. Absolutely. And a lot of those prosperity gospel ministers have turned off so many people to giving completely because they see every ministry as acting selfishly and using that money and resources for their own gain versus helping those people, helping out people that are most in need. You know, St. Francis, a lot of churches do tremendous amount of outreach to people who are homeless, people who are sick, people who are suffering from, you know, catastrophes in one way or another, you know, on elderly parishioners' houses and, you know, to help those most in need in their communities. Because of the prosperity gospel message, so many people don't want to help in those situations anymore. Right. Yeah. And it pulls you out of wanting to give and to bless other people. And it moves you over into suspicion. I'm suspicious of what you're doing with what I'm giving. And, you know, nobody has infinite resources. You know, a richest person in the world has, you know, much. I mean, a lot. We only have so much. And people like us where, you know, so much that we have to give, we have to purpose in our heart that we want to give it to what is good and wholesome, what's bringing forth the gospel. And I say it all the time when I'm talking about stuff like this, God's not a supernatural slot machine. You can't drop in $50 or $1,144 and expect, you know, a bag. Can God do that? Absolutely. You know, scripture through others passages and stories throughout scripture that show us that God can bless, you know, it's not a supernatural, there's not a supernatural slot machine there. And I believe that God wants us to help others, you know, you know, I do what I feel like I need to to my local church. And then I also have blessed people with food. I've paid people's car payments. I've helped people personally. I have given away cars to people. And only do that because, you know, to my abundance. Now they weren't brand new cars, but it helps somebody be able to get back and forth to work. And, you know, to do that. But I don't go around making sure everybody knows that. And I go around and making sure everybody, you know, can look at him. He's wonderful. That's like that. It's about just blessing people because that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to help others. We're supposed to empower others. We're supposed to have pity and compassion upon others, whatever that looks like. And this type of preaching, I hate to even call it gospel, but this type of preaching and mindset is, you know, this great exchange thing going where you have to specifically me. It's got to be me that you're dropping this money into because only I am connected with God, not you. And in all the years that I was around stuff like that, you didn't hear preaching that says when you've done to the least of these you've done unto me. Because that would take our focus and move it broadly. It would move it beyond personality. And it would dump it over into people that you've got to know give specific to a Paula White or a Mike Murdoch or to a Jesse Du Planis or an Osteen. You've got to give it to a personality versus, you know, did where Jesus wasn't running to the high priest and making sure everybody saw that Jesus was multiplying the high priest's garments, giving him jewels in the day that Jesus was on the earth. No, Jesus was talking to the woman at the well. He was feeding the five thousand. He was speaking to the woman with the issue of blood and so on. And you didn't hear it framed at all in that way because they wanted to make sure that that money came to them directly because only they can connect with God. And I'm going to share this real quick and then I'm going to hush. I saw a lot of this type of thing happen with gospel people. They have a tendency and if you listen to them on the regular, if you listen to them on the regular, what they would do is they would talk about how each other in their little circle, like the ship band, Bishop Greer in our little circle, we would just basically give in our circle. You hear him talk about giving in their circle. Oftentimes you'd hear him talking about, oh, this one blessed me with a car. And this megachurch pastor over here and they would name this megachurch pastor over here. And then this megachurch pastor over here would say, oh, this person gave me a Rolex and they would emphasize stuff like that. They would emphasize the Rolex. They would emphasize the cars. They would emphasize, you know, what Kenneth Copeland got up and bragged about having 20 plus bright wing watches in his collection. And how this other pastor over here would give to him and this other pastor over here made sure he wanted a blessing. And it's that, to me, it's almost incestuous amongst each other and that's how they would do it. They weren't taking God's love, walking out onto the street and buying someone a sandwich. You didn't hear those stories. You didn't hear the stories about, you know, when the church and they went and you know, the time wither and all this stuff, it was all around the cars and the houses and the watch and all that type of stuff. And I watched that happen over and over and over again. And that's not how the gospel teaches us to handle resources and money. - That's correct. In fact, what does the gospel tell us to do with resources and money? Well, Jesus, says his own instructions on giving in Luke 10, 35 says that we should give expecting nothing in return. Not, not give expecting a multiplied return. And then Matthew six, one through four, Jesus explicitly teaches that giving should be done so privately that your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is doing. The entire structure of on air dollar amount specific giving asks, giving asks, ends in direct tension with this, you know? The core of the problem is that this teaching quietly relocates the object of faith. Faith is no longer trusting God's character. It becomes trust in a financial transaction with a predictable and promised outcome. That is not biblical faith. Hebrews 11 one calls face the substance of things to be hoped for, but the evidence of things not seen on a receipt for a guaranteed reward or return. And so Reverend Mark, this teaching seems aimed at disproportionately at people in real financial and personal crisis who are the most vulnerable to the promise that their $1,144 gift will produce their breakthrough. - It's always focusing on those that are in dire needs. If you've listened to them, again, I've watched this up close. and personal and they were specific, you know, specific about, oh, you're out there and you're, you know, got your last dollar, send us your last dollar, send us the last is, put it on your credit card. Yeah, go into debt to help us to get out of debt and all that type of stuff. It's always a focus on those and it's very emotional. It's a very emotional moment that they they prey on people and it's even gotten so egregious that you're seeing videos now of pastors, locking doors of churches. You're seeing pastors standing up and openly rebuke people that are coming up and making pledges. Why you have people coming up and showing their pledge to the pastor. I have nothing against pledge drives, but that should be between you and God and, you know, church secretary that keeps over the church to know how much money's supposed to come in. But it's not supposed to be for a congregational needs that, that you know, a person's given a thousand a year, this person's given 50,000 a year or whatever. And stuff like that, it's so egregious now that stuff like that's happening. I mean, watch pastors get up and bless out their congregation because they didn't give them a very expensive, and I'm talking about $15,000 plus watch and blessing them out. And there you look at the video and there's, you know, 60 people sitting in the congregation and you're going, I mean, 50, 60 millionaires in there, I don't know, but it could be 50, 60 people that are living paycheck to paycheck and you're expecting them to buy you a $10,000 watch. Give me a, please show me where Jesus was up there saying, I need a, I need a $10,000 camel, you know, a brand new camel, you know, feeding the 5,000. He wouldn't let any of them eat until somebody promised to buy him a brand new camel, donkey. I mean, and so it's, it's, it's focusing on that and it's telling those people, you know, you need that money that lasts $50 to feed your children. You need to make or pay your light bill. You need more than that. We all need more than that. So give it, just give it to me and trust that I'm going to do something right with it because you're not doing what's right with it. And, and again, we're not sitting here saying don't give but we're saying it's, it's got to be the right heart and the heart is the issue and the hearts that, you know, stand up and manipulate my congregation tomorrow and maybe make an impact that moment, but I'm teaching them bad theology and bad beliefs by doing so for just momentary gain. And that's really what you're talking about there is you're talking about momentary gain. And some of these ministries, they'll, they'll rack in all the money. And they'll do some outreach stuff, but in comparison to what they're demanding everybody else do, they're doing very little, you know, been shown to do less than 1% towards actual outreach ministry, everything else is overhead. And when you're talking about overhead, talking about the salaries and those salaries are bloated. It's, it's just endless. That is so very true. And that moves us into our next person, which is Mike Murdoch down in Texas, Bishop Ben's territory. What did he do with that money later on in his ministry? What did he get? What was you known for? His private jets, his cars, and what happened when Congress came to ask him? He didn't want to answer any questions. So, you know, he had exotic animals in his backyard. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. Most of the guy he's, there's a lot of words I could say, but right. Those are some of the things. And he boasted about it. Right. I can see living next to Mike Murdoch and his neighbor has friends over for a cookout and they go, what's an elephant doing in your neighbor's back? Oh, that's Pastor Murdoch. See, he, he invoked a 90 day germination thing that he had and I never understood that neither. 90 days of spiritual giving to the, to plant that seed. But where did that money actually go? Nobody knows. Did he go to help the community? No. Did he feed the hungry? No. Did he buy him a new camel? Absolutely not. But hey, you know, that guy here, he's been hosting. You know, they're teaching. They're, they're, they're fleecing their congregations. And like Bishop, when you said a while ago, they're going out after the most vulnerable in the congregation, the one that's suffering from paycheck to paycheck or living off social security. Hey, where you got social security, you get afforded to give us an abundance of money. Well, that poor person's going to eat ramen soup the rest of the month, whether giving you a thousand other check for donation or whatever, you know. So what is scripture? Say about that, Reverend Mark? Well, it's definitely a perversion. And you know, Michael tells us that God is looking for those that have a humbled heart. They may be troubled in spirit, but they have a humble heart. They're, they're, they, the God wants us to come and to be, you know, like God, I can't do anything without you. I need your help. And we're not supposed to be looking to God and saying, here, let me drop my, my 50 dollar dollars. Let me drop my 58 or a thousand. A thousand was a big one. They love that thousand one. It's probably because of inflation, it's probably up to 5,000 now adjusted. Your giving is adjusted for inflation nowadays. And so a lot of that would happen. And, you know, is so framed because what they'll do is they'll take a little bit of wisdom from scripture, proverbs, or something in the scripture. And they'll weave it into making sure that it sounds godly. It's a form of godliness. It's a form of, you know, it's trying to get to us. And God does, I agree, God wants to bless us, but it's, it's focusing them back on stuff. And notoriously prosperity preachers will talk about, you know, maybe gospel goes into all the world. And they'll talk about that for a grand total of 1% .5% of their message time. And everything else revolves around the giving, the exchange, and then oh, this person gave one time. And then the next day they had the biggest deal of their business ever in life. And it opened up a million, $100 million blessing to them or they got a car or they got it. It's always revolving around the stuff. It's always revolving around the things. You never heard them stepping back. talking about how this mess, this blessed the widow or this blessed the person or this blessed this, that it was always the stuff. And that, in my opinion, brings forth plants, the seeds to where people are coveting what everybody else has. And scripture is very clear about embracing a coverage of spirit and, and having to watch your neighbor has and having a, giving way to greed and coveting what my friend has, you know, focus about what giving actually should be and what actually deposed to because if you teach it that way, it, it has people giving all over the place and blessing all over the place. And it has, it has jobs from ministries that are actually doing the work of the gospel. It, so it's, it's harmful, not just on the individual level, but it's harmful to the church universal because I truly believe there's a, there's so many ministries across our world that are doing what the gospel says. And this type of theology pulls from them and hurts them. Absolutely. It's kind of that reverse beatitudes, you know, exactly. exactly. And the poor can come to the kingdom. And while we bless the poor and maybe help the poor out, but stuff, we're putting their focus on the stuff, on the things. And matter of fact, in some prosper, I'll say this and hash some prosperity situations. If you are in poverty, or if you're without, then you're obviously sinful. There's something wrong with you. That's a huge, that's a huge tool that there's something wrong with you. Absolutely. And that's, that is a huge theological error. And that's a lead into the next part, it blames the suffering of for their suffering. You know, if wealth, faith, outcome, then poverty, illness and hardship become evidence of a person's spiritual failure, rather than the result of systemic injustice, medical or simple human hardship. This directly parallels what the show is already named in other episodes about the false comfort of everything happens for a reason, theology. Prosperity teaching goes further and actively assigns blame to the sufferer. So is your fault, your poor is your fault that you're going through these medical crisis. It's your fault for whatever is going on in your life. life that doesn't align with what you think God wants of you. And that in and of itself is a horrible theology because it damages so many people and it leaves them in a place of despair and hardship and ultimately it festers rage and anger and resentment, not just towards the church, but towards God, you know, because shifted half faith in God to half faith in yourself. You know, point Bishop Ben is it financially exploits people in genuine crisis. Well, I was going to say that. And I was going to note that Paula White and Maddox and the people we were talking about, they're not just so people that are just responsible for it. We've got kind of Copeland, uh, other television artists are doing this. There's not a soul thing. It's just not just stuck with them. You know, it's church with big maker churches and TV churches, which causes this problem. So you have to think about why do they blame, you know, why do they always your fault, your poor because they want to invoke that feeling of, well, maybe I'm not, maybe he's right. Maybe I'm not doing enough. Maybe I'm suffering because I'm not giving to God correctly. So they're meant to invoke these harsh feelings to make you give. I heard a pastor here and he's not going to name the person, but I'm pretty sure Mark and Bishop Beno who I'm talking about. He gave a conference one time to all clergy, teaching on how to build your church's wealth. And during his speech that he gave here in Houston, he opened up and he admitted to having three psychologists on staff to help him figure out how to gain the most money out of the congregation, how to invoke those feelings, how to invoke the stage settings and the music and the lighting to make it make you feel you have to give invoke those powers. Well, absolutely. And that ultimately ends up being the problem. And this is the fruit Jesus asked his followers to examine not the sincerity of the teachers delivery, but the actual outcome for people who trust them. Right. And if people who trust them are being manipulated by the situation they're in or the, you know, theatrical production service, then, you know, they're not going to produce good fruit out of that situation. You know, GSA, you know, good fruit from a bad tree and bad fruit doesn't come from a good tree. You know, so the what you're in and what you're experiencing will dictate what kind of fruits you're going to produce. Yeah. And I mean, how many does the scripture teach us about being mindful of those that are trying to manipulate us and coerce us into doing whatever. And remember, Jesus, that there are people that will come in sheep's clothing and we have to be so careful that those that we, you know, test this. We're taught and by testing the spirit, you step back and, you know, is there from the tree? That's what you're looking for is the fruit, not in a judgmental attitude, but in an idea of saying, okay, are they putting money where their mouth is, you know, and are they actually living this out? And I mean, it was funny that, you know, you had this subject, Bishop, because I was watching, I was going through some reels on one of the social medias and I had this minister jump up in the reel and he was talking about how, again, prosperity, he was talking about how his daughter and his granddaughter call him, I am, you know, just name, call him, I am. And his specific reference is because he gives them whatever they want, materials, things, whatever they want, he blesses them with. So they've called him now, they call him, I am. And I'm sitting here going, are you kidding me? Are you absolutely kidding me? And, you know, they'll talk, you know, we're not talking about when we go out in the world and we help people and the homeless and all that stuff. So we don't show that on television, we don't talk about it. Yeah, but you're sitting here talking about watching images and cars and houses and how much, how many people are giving to your ministry and how much money you have. You're talking about all that stuff, but you're not showing people that you're truly out there doing things in the world. So I question the fact that you're actually doing those things. And a lot of ministries you find, if you do deep dives with them, you find that they don't actually give that much to other ministries. And listen, overhead in the church is enormous right now due to cost of living. I get that. But there should be something going towards others to help others. And so, you know, when you're $50 million a year and you're giving a scant 50,000 or less to actual shelters and homeless ministries, come on. It's a lot. You know, and don't get known people writing books and stuff in this circle. So I want to talk a little bit now about what healthy biblical stewardship and generosity actually look like. So we mentioned it or giving without expectation of return, Luke 1035, Matthew 6, 1 through 4. The giving model by Jesus is private, sacrificial, and free of any expectation of proportional return. And it's important because there are many people in the scriptures that are blessed and I wholeheartedly believe that we are blessed in order to help other people that we we have, you know, some people I call to hold and handle money. And the reason I believe your call to do that is because their heart is in the right places. I've met a lot of people who have wealth and money and they do for others and they you would never suspect them. They will walk up. I've had people walk up to me hand me $500 and tell me to give this to so and so in the church. Don't tell them who it is. And only to this day, I know what they gave and who they gave it to and so on so forth. And I'll keep that to myself. And so it's important for us to to bless those and to help those with whatever is needed in their lives. And sometimes it's not money. Sometimes, you know, a meal or somebody, you know, fix a fix it up sink or something like that, you know, your blessings through your wisdom and knowledge and and we're all hyper focused on money. And these teachings from false prophets and charlatans and all those type of folks have us fixated on that. Of course, we're a capitalistic society over here in America. And so God is trying to pull us out of just focusing simply on money and about building the kingdom and the kingdoms about relationship, the kingdoms about healing, the kingdoms about seeking the least among us and helping them and so on so forth. But it does take folks around us to have things in order for us to get the message out. It took money for you, Bishop, to buy the computer that they're broadcasting on the microphone so you can hear us the camera so that you can see us so on so forth so on. And so we're not saying that, you know, money can be loving it, but also loving power also loving fame also loving so on so forth. And so money can be a can be a tool in the in the heart that is leaned towards God's love that's bent towards God's love. And that should be the focus is seeing people's hearts change towards the love of God. Then all the other things that we have and possess can go towards those fulfilling that and helping other people. That's so very true. And so Bishop Ben, what do people need to look for in a healthy ministry? Well, that's a very good question. And I'm glad you asked that because what does a healthy ministry look like? Well, in my opinion, it's in OCC and I'm sure for Reverend Mark's church is the same thing for MCC, a healthy, healthy membership in a healthy ministry looks like people helping face an action, helping the public, feeding the homeless, giving out blessing black bags, giving other times church cleanup days, that's not the pastor wearing a Rolex and look at me. I'm Mr. Gucci. I look good. I'm wearing Prada for a church clothes, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it's what the congregation does. That word science, it shows the community that this church is actually doing something instead of spending money on buying personal gains. It's like for us, like we can get that. Oh, you're just a fighting cabinet ministry or internet church. What do you really do for your community? Well, for one OCC I give out blessing black bags across the U.S. We help the homeless. We help them marginalized. It's the same process for MCC. They do the same thing. You know, you look at other U.S. and Houston and across other major cities that have major churches. What have they done? Do you see their food to their labor? No, we don't. You know, I could say they name pastor after pastor, but what's the point of doing that? You know, we're going to show, what ministries are after two ministries. I agree and I appreciate that. So let's recap, scripture itself gives the church language for these types of teachers, false prophets, false teachers, wolves and sheep's clothing. And by their fruit, this pattern is measurable, documented and consistent across multiple prominent teachers that by their fruit, you shall know them. The corrective is not cynicism about giving our ministry. It is a recovery of what Jesus actually taught. giving that expects nothing in return. Faith that trusts God's character rather than a financial formula and a gospel that blesses the poor rather than blaming them. If you have given to a ministry chasing a promised harvest that never came, that is not a reflection of your faith failing. It is a reflection of a teaching that was never biblical to begin with. I think that's important for people to hear today. Well, I want to thank Reverend Mark and Bishop Ben for being here tonight and help us open. Thank you for having us. Thank you for hosting us, Bishop. Right. As always, if you'd like to send us a topic that you think you'd like to hear or just give us a comment or question, you can reach out at Bishop God see at my OCCI dot org or by visiting our St. Francis dot org or even podcast dot my OCCI dot social. And that's where you can also find previous editions of this podcast as well as podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast app. A reminder that we're live every Saturday at eight p.m. Eastern time and you now com four slash Bishop Greg and TikTok at expanding your faith. And I wanted to sit next week. We're going to do a little bit of a lighter show that a couple of of heavy ones. So now we do a lighter show called church sign theology. So our hosts, myself, Reverend Mark and Bishop Ben will come up with some of the funniest, craziest, wildest church sign theology that we can. And we'll just share them and talk about them in a light-hearted way here next Saturday. So until then, until we once again attempt to expand your faith, keep shining bright, my friends. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. And you can also find us online at podcasts dot my OCCI dot social and our St. Francis dot org. Follow us on Facebook at expanding your faith. Our producer is Bishop Ben Williams. Expanding your faith is an outreach ministry of St. Francis parish and outreach in Augusta, Georgia. Produced in cooperation with the Metropolitan Community Church of our Redeemer in Augusta, Georgia. Georgia. Until next time, keep expanding your faith.